PreenFM Forum

PreenFM => preenfm2 and preenfm3 => Topic started by: zmberber on September 08, 2020, 11:37:45 AM

Title: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: zmberber on September 08, 2020, 11:37:45 AM
I just found out about the PreenFM3, the only place I can find information about it is here: http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/preenfm3/ (http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/preenfm3/).  The FAQ section is helpful, but I have more questions, I wonder if anyone knows (or if Mr. Hosxe will respond).

I have been wanting to buy a PreenFM2 Eurorack format for a while now, but now I am wondering if I should wait for the PreenFM3.

I have one concern with the PreenFM3 though.  The screen.  it looks like a normal RGB screen.  I just wish the screen were like the PreenFM2, or something like a screen on an MPC1000 or the screen of an Elektron device.  I don't want dead pixels and also in general it seems like RGB screens just break very easily.  Lower resolution black-and-white LCD screens also just look way better than higher resolution RGB screens.  But that is just a minor concern haha ;)

Yeah so basically I am wondering if I should wait for the PreenFM3 or just get my PreenFM2 Eurorack and be happy with the nice looking screen.  The new features are not super crazy, but still, a good reason to get the PreenFM3, maybe...
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on September 08, 2020, 09:50:45 PM
Thanks for these first questions  :)

. I should receive a first small batch of PCBs this week.
  I'll sell them with a discount and will see from the feedbacks whether this version needs modification.
  This version is maybe the 10th i ordered, so i really hope everywthing will be OK.

. I have no plan doing any Eurorack version. Maybe VanDaalElectronics will work on the hardware.
  If so, i'll likely do the firmware part as for the preenfm2.
  Nothing is started yet.

. Price for the 2 PCBs of the preenfm3 you see here : http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/preenfm3/thebuil/  will be 85€.
  Total price will depend on the case and the part you add to it.
  I think it will be around 200€.

. The TFT i chose for the preenfm3 looks OK and has a SD slot which is also used.
  It's cheap and is not soldered so it can be replace easily.
  The UI use the 240x320 color display. So you can do things that are not possible with a text display.
  See attach screenshot.

Xavier
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: solipsvs on September 09, 2020, 01:14:16 AM
awesome!

will you be able to use core parts of the preenfm2 code?

just curious, will there be wavetable support?

Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on September 09, 2020, 06:37:38 AM
awesome!
will you be able to use core parts of the preenfm2 code?
just curious, will there be wavetable support?

No wavetable.
The FM engine is almost the same as the preenfm2.

What you get with the preenfm3 is :
. More voices with effect per voice.
. higher sample rate (48Khz vs 42)
. 6 instruments (instead of 4)
. A "mixer" section to have more control on each instrument
. 6 audio outputs instruments can be routed to
. A graphical user interface
. A builtin small sequencer
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: kuzma_p on September 09, 2020, 04:38:20 PM
wow! looking forward

>I'll sell them with a discount and will see from the feedbacks whether this version needs modification.

i'm in :)
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: realms_of_chaos on September 09, 2020, 05:20:12 PM
PreenFM3 looks amazing! I'm really not confident about building one myself so I'm hoping VanDaalElectronics will sell pre-built versions like they did with the PreenFM2.

One quick question though... will the PreenFM3 be poweful enough to open up the possibility of built-in effects like delay/reverb being implemented in the firmware?
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: solipsvs on September 09, 2020, 05:45:13 PM
i have some suggestions:

waveshaper
comb filter
inverter
audio over usb
user lfo waveforms
feedback algorithms
randomizer from sound engine display
cv inputs?

very excited to hear about this development!
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: solipsvs on September 09, 2020, 06:29:39 PM
oh, please make a wrist watch version  :o
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: matrix12x on September 09, 2020, 06:46:44 PM
I'm also hoping there is enough CPU and ram to do a reverb/and/or delay.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on September 10, 2020, 09:29:31 AM
waveshaper

How would work a wave shapper in a FM synth ?
Isn't FM already a kind of wave shapper ?

comb filter

Adding new effect is not my priority but that can be done if it does not consume too much CPU/RAM.
90%+ of the preenfm2 effects have been added by Toltekradiation.

inverter

Inverter of what ?

audio over usb

I tried a long time ago and that didn't work with the preenfm2. Lots of audio glitches I could not fix.
Don't know with the new CPU of the preenfm3.
But yes, that would be nice.

user lfo waveforms

Not planned in the short term. Would be cool.

feedback algorithms

It's possible, i made a try and didn't get anything interesting regarding the sound.
I still have to investigate that further.
I don't know how FM8 did that, it sounds great on that synth.
In addition, the feedback must be done with phase modulation and not frequency modulation but who cares  ;)

randomizer from sound engine display

Oh i see.
That's interesting. Would need design for the new UI.

cv inputs?

All 8 additional inputs exposed in the control board are linked to MCU pins that can do ADC.
So yes it's possible.

I'm also hoping there is enough CPU and ram to do a reverb/and/or delay.

I don't think so.
But it needs investigation.
I think i know how to make a delay, but i have no idea for the reverb.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: solipsvs on September 10, 2020, 02:51:34 PM
ok, wave folder then.  its simple and has a unique vibe, works well with sine waves

invert the waveform coming from the output of the voice to get all the punch possible from a combo or to facilitate sfx

ideally feedback should be made available to any and every operator.  even better would be a collection of operators with a freely assignable modulation matrix, so you make your algorithm from scratch.  then make every modulation/feedback path modulatable haha
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: matrix12x on September 11, 2020, 03:09:03 AM
I'm like 90% sure I can code a reverb. maybe 80% sure....



I'm also hoping there is enough CPU and ram to do a reverb/and/or delay.

I don't think so.
But it needs investigation.
I think i know how to make a delay, but i have no idea for the reverb.

Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: vurt on September 12, 2020, 04:22:35 PM
Please include a clock In for it...

I doubt i would be super interested in a eurorack version when it already will have a sequencer + to be honest it's quite advanced already when it comes to internally changing how the sound can move in interesting ways. I've noticed this even with PreenFm2 (euroversion), you can do a lot with it in clever ways.. don't really need to externally use LFO's or whatever to the CV in's.
Of course, ideal inputs would be Pitch CV, Gate in, 2x mod inputs, clock in.. but if it ups the cost and complexity too much its not worth it, IMO, just a clock in would do.

When a new synth (with sequencer) or a complex delay these days doesn't have a Clock In i can't help but facepalm.. there are so many people these days who has some CV gear. When the first PreenFM came out it was different, not too many had eurorack or Behringer stuff etc..
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: cube48 on September 14, 2020, 09:36:18 AM
Awesome to see further development!

FX per voice, great! Could it be possible to switch FX routings from 1FX/voice to stack of 6FX on master out? Or even some sort of bus routing with FX stacking so output pairs could make up stereo pair? Or are the outputs already stereo?

Sorry for avalanche of questions. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: jabberwalky on September 18, 2020, 01:34:49 AM
This is great news! I'm not even going to ask for any features or anything annoying like that. I'd love to be an early adopter and make a video about it!
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: solipsvs on September 18, 2020, 04:28:25 AM
oh im sorry youre annoyed we asked for features.  your 2 cents were so righteous tho!
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Drexy on September 24, 2020, 04:11:07 AM
PM with feedback please :D
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on September 27, 2020, 11:47:34 AM
I wonder if it's possible in the new PFM3 to design it so that there is no clicking when changing programs.

That's a tricky part.
But i agree it would be great, i need to investigate that a little more.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: lokki on September 27, 2020, 01:30:41 PM
i think "commercial" synths usually just fade out the current sound and then load the new one.

the absolute golden way would be a crossfade (with adjustable time) between one preset and the other :-) some kind of morph function.
but that is probably too advanced for a simple program change.

i think just fading out the current sound (3ms) will greatly help with the clicking. or you can delay the patch switching until you hit the next zero crossing of the waveform currently playing. of course this will get very adventurous with a combo of 4 or 6 instruments :-)

another point to consider, what do you do with currently playing midi notes? simply stop them? change the sound and keep them playing? only load the new sound, once you get a note off?

actually the option to keep voices/instruments sounding until you get a note off would be very nice, but again this essentially means you have to load the new sound and keep the old sound in memory...
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on September 28, 2020, 02:26:24 PM
I wonder if it's possible in the new PFM3 to design it so that there is no clicking when changing programs.

i think "commercial" synths usually just fade out the current sound and then load the new one.
another point to consider, what do you do with currently playing midi notes? simply stop them?


The next preenfm3 firmware (0.91) will have a silent preset loading process

. The concerned instrument quickly fades out its current playing sounds. No clicking.
. If it was playing notes, they are triggered again after the new preset is loaded.
. Other instruments continue playing as if nothing happens.

That's a nice improvement, specially when changing preset while the sequencer is playing.

It was not really straightforward  ;)
https://github.com/Ixox/preenfm3/commit/5227b9f1801acafbf89ba286c969297f62fe276a

Thanks for the discussion :)

Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: lokki on September 28, 2020, 07:54:27 PM
oh, yes! nice one!!! 404 additions, poor xavier.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: observer on October 04, 2020, 10:32:08 PM
I wonder if it's possible in the new PFM3 to design it so that there is no clicking when changing programs.

i think "commercial" synths usually just fade out the current sound and then load the new one.
another point to consider, what do you do with currently playing midi notes? simply stop them?


The next preenfm3 firmware (0.91) will have a silent preset loading process

. The concerned instrument quickly fades out its current playing sounds. No clicking.
. If it was playing notes, they are triggered again after the new preset is loaded.
. Other instruments continue playing as if nothing happens.

That's a nice improvement, specially when changing preset while the sequencer is playing.

It was not really straightforward  ;)
https://github.com/Ixox/preenfm3/commit/5227b9f1801acafbf89ba286c969297f62fe276a

Thanks for the discussion :)

simply awesome. Thanks xavier! I wonder if this same technique could be applied to pfm2? I realize that development is focused on the 3, but it would be nice to use them both together and I'm sequencing all of my synths, often with program changes. so this is a vital thing in my setup.

thanks again. very excited for this pfm3 as it develops.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on October 07, 2020, 10:09:57 PM
PM with feedback please :D

Available in the v0.91
https://github.com/Ixox/preenfm3/releases


Don't expect a all new universe of sound, but can be interesting in some situation.
So it's a phase modulation feedback with a DC offset removal algo not to shift main frequency of the followin FM op.

For each algo the operator with feedback is visible in the UI, and can be changed with the "Fdbk" encoder.



Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: matrix12x on October 09, 2020, 03:53:51 AM
No chance for adding that (PM feedback) to the PFM2?
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Megalomidiac on October 09, 2020, 12:57:10 PM
I have 3D printed the casing yesterday.

Will the PreenFM3 produce so much heat that all this holes are necessary or is it just design?
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on October 09, 2020, 04:11:10 PM
No chance for adding that (PM feedback) to the PFM2?

It's doable,
I won't do that for the pfm2 in a near futur for sure. Too many things to do.
As code is available, maybe someone else will do that before me.

That won't put the PFM2 in a new dimension. That's a little enhancement to my opnion.
It's more  a marketing announce as i could see on different forum that people are wanting it  ;)


Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on October 09, 2020, 04:12:46 PM
I have 3D printed the casing yesterday.
Will the PreenFM3 produce so much heat that all this holes are necessary or is it just design?

To save PLA/plastic only ;)
But it's not very nice.
Did you use the STL file or the Fusion360 model ?
I think it's easy to modify it.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Megalomidiac on October 09, 2020, 05:29:52 PM
I have used the .stl because Im using FreeCad, not Fusion.

But it will be easy to close the holes, just import the .stl and convert it.

Do you plan to publish the exact space variables?
I would like to make an acrylic casing like its existing for Ambika and Anushri when I have time in winter. So it would be helpful to have the front and back panel as Adobe Illustrator file.
I don't know if it would be possible to export them from Fusion. I will try to export the .stl to an Illustrator compatible format at first.

The printed casing is fine so far, I just had a bit of warping (PETG) and it unfortuantly does not close exactly. Anyway, it will last until there is a metal or acrylic casing.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on October 09, 2020, 06:07:12 PM
Do you plan to publish the exact space variables?
I would like to make an acrylic casing like its existing for Ambika and Anushri when I have time in winter. So it would be helpful to have the front and back panel as Adobe Illustrator file.

What would you need ?
I think i can export the surface to svg or dxf.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Megalomidiac on October 09, 2020, 06:16:12 PM
Thank you, .dxf would be perfect!
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on October 09, 2020, 06:45:37 PM
Thank you, .dxf would be perfect!

Let me know if the attached dxf work.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Megalomidiac on October 09, 2020, 07:13:53 PM
Thank you, they work.
But I did the work by myself in the meantime, it's the kind of work I like ;)

I have another question:

On the top side, there is marked a circle that I think is left from the PCB design, a little screw between the potentiometers. Will this screw make trouble or can I ignore this?
It made a little failure in the 3D Print, if you make a 0.3mm first layer, there will be only 0.1mm layer above this hole.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on October 09, 2020, 09:36:45 PM
On the top side, there is marked a circle that I think is left from the PCB design, a little screw between the potentiometers. Will this screw make trouble or can I ignore this?
It made a little failure in the 3D Print, if you make a 0.3mm first layer, there will be only 0.1mm layer above this hole.

Yes that's the goal.
There's a led just bellow so if it's thiner the led will  be more visible through this little circle.
It's not essential ;)
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: NonovYurbiz on October 12, 2020, 06:39:51 PM
hi. just a quick question for a FM newbie. will this make it more like a dx7, hence importing old patches to create similar sounds? great work and i'm looking forward to the preenfm3.

PM with feedback please :D

Available in the v0.91
https://github.com/Ixox/preenfm3/releases


Don't expect a all new universe of sound, but can be interesting in some situation.
So it's a phase modulation feedback with a DC offset removal algo not to shift main frequency of the followin FM op.

For each algo the operator with feedback is visible in the UI, and can be changed with the "Fdbk" encoder.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on October 12, 2020, 09:58:38 PM
hi. just a quick question for a FM newbie. will this make it more like a dx7, hence importing old patches to create similar sounds? great work and i'm looking forward to the preenfm3.

Hi,

Thanks  :)

preenfm2 and preenfm3 are not good DX7 emulation with or without feedback.
DX7 import can be usefull to browse new patches and use them as a starting point of a new preset creation by adding pan, some modulation, effect, arpegiator.....
Or just after a DX7 import, go to the randomizer and only add a bit of "Soft modulation" without touching anything else, it can give good result.

But don't buy a preenfm if you're after a synth that sounds like a DX7.

If you want to explore FM synthesis with a flexible hardware synth, go ;)
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: realms_of_chaos on October 13, 2020, 07:15:47 PM
Hi

What are the dimensions of the 3D printed case, please?

Apologies if I can find this out from the files but I don't know how. Also don't have a 3D printer of my own so I would have to find a service to print it for me. Anyway the dimensions are important for planning how I would fit it into my setup with the very limited space I have.

I also might just wait and see if Van Daal Electronics produce an assembled version as I'm not very confident about soldering.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: Xavier on October 13, 2020, 09:23:30 PM

Hi,

I would wait before ordering a 3D print from a service.
Wait that someone with a 3D printer at home, confirm it works well and maybe improve the model.

I've just updated the page with a new model :
https://github.com/Ixox/preenfm3/wiki/3D-Printing-Enclosure

The preenfm3 in its case is around 20.5 * 9.5 cm.
Height is 4.5 in the front, 5 cm in the rear.

Weight of model B is around 100g if i remember correctly.
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: realms_of_chaos on October 13, 2020, 10:16:41 PM
Thanks Xavier  :)
Title: Re: PreenFM3 Questions
Post by: served on October 17, 2020, 09:46:00 AM
Metal case is also in production. proto Should be available in few weeks.