Author Topic: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues [fixed in 1.61]  (Read 4808 times)

stereoping

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Hi  :)

first congrats for this really cool project. Building the device was easy and fun, thanks for the excellent manual.

Well, i LOVE polyphony and - too bad - I got some problems with the polyphony. When setting long release-times, some new notes are NOT triggered. Normally i would expect the still sounding notes to be cut and to be replaced by the newly triggered notes. But, as i mentioned the NEW notes are not played when old notes got long releases. I made an MP3 of what i mean. You hear 4 times a dull 3-note poly-sequence with SHORT release, all is perfect. Then i make the releasetime quite long and things get ugly, Sequencer is FLStudio:

http://www.stereoping.com/mp3/preenFM_polyphony.mp3

Another issue: when playing it from a Fantom X6 keyboard i get lots of not recognized NOTE OFF events resulting in note hangings. It's the first synth where i got this behaviour. When played from a JX8p or from a DSI Prophet08 or through my midisport 4x4  all works fine. I sent the Fantoms Midi-Out into the monitor of midi-OX to see if its sending some strange values (Note on with velocity 0 or sth like that) but all looked fined. Might be a hardware-issue  :-\  My waldorf midi-gecko (midi chord memory) also refused to work together with the fantom.

Last thought: if i had a feature-wish for preenFM, it would definately be MORE VOICES, even if there is only one LFO left with only 2 Matrix-slots. But i guess thats not so easy, is it?

Ah, i still got 1.51, maybe the polyphony-issues are fixed in the meantime...?

thanks for reading
gregor



 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 10:43:16 PM by Xavier »
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Xavier

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 04:56:31 PM »
Hi Gergor,

Thanks for your post.

I have no idea what can be wrong with the fantom X6.
If you record the phantom in your sequencer and then playback the midi to the PreenFM, is it always OK ?
Does the missing notOff only occures when the Phantom is plugged directly in the PreenFM ?
If you find anything that help me understanding please share, this is a problem that is worth a firmware update.

I'd love more voice too  ;)
I need a more  powerfull CPU for that. The new STM32F4 can be a good candidate... but it will eventually be in PreenFMV2 with new hardware.
All LFO and all Matrix modulation uses 1/10th of a single 3 operator voice.

What you expect regarding polytphony is exactly how it should work.
The behaviour you get is NOT the normal one. And unfortunately 1.60 won't fix anything on this side.
I'll try to reproduce it.
And be back to you soon.


Xavier






« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 08:02:01 PM by Xavier »

Xavier

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 08:26:22 PM »

Gregor,

I cannot reproduce the problem you describe with long release time.
Could you send me the midi file ? I suspect some specific timing...

Thanks,

Xavier

stereoping

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 09:00:47 PM »
Hi Gergor,

Thanks for your post.

I have no idea what can be wrong with the fantom X6.
If you record the phantom in your sequencer and then playback the midi to the PreenFM, is it always OK ?

yes :)

Does the missing notOff only occures when the Phantom is plugged directly in the PreenFM ?

yes, although the problem also occurs when going Fantom -> Kawai midipatchbay -> preenFM

pitchbend is also humbling

If you find anything that help me understanding please share, this is a problem that is worth a firmware update.

I guess its a hardware thing on the fantom. The waldorf gecko also didnt want to work with it.

I'd love more voice too  ;)
...All LFO and all Matrix modulation uses 1/10th of a single 3 operator voice.

Ah :-) thats interesting. Well, ok, 4 voices are quite cool nevertheless.

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stereoping

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 09:12:50 PM »

Gregor,

I cannot reproduce the problem you describe with long release time.
Could you send me the midi file ? I suspect some specific timing...

Thanks,

Xavier

the specific file i didnt save. But the problem is easy to reproduce here. I made another demo and saved the midifile. You find it here:

http://www.stereoping.com/downloads/preenProblem.zip

As in the example before at the beginning of the audio i had very short release, all working perfect. Just making release longer (around 120 and above) results in neglegated notes.

Maybe the problem is FruityLoops and its quantization. When i manually shift the problematic notes apart so that they are NOT exactly on their quantizationposition, it seems to work with the polyphony. Other synths dont show this behaviour, (well, but other synths got more voices to sound...). Is it a midibus problem? Fruity sending notes faster out than the bus can handle at one time? No, midi is serial... the notes are just sent one after the other. Hmmm ...

Malheureusement i dont have another sequencer here to test with  :-[
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Xavier

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 10:21:33 PM »

Thanks a lot for the file...
I can reproduce it... Strange i never noticed that when playing.

I'll investigate in the "new note algorythm"  ;)

Xavier

Xavier

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 09:06:41 PM »
Thanks a lot for reporting this problem and for the files.
I think it's fixed in 1.61 firmware.

Let me know,

Xavier

« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 09:13:23 PM by Xavier »

stereoping

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 08:44:04 AM »
Thanks a lot for reporting this problem and for the files.
I think it's fixed in 1.61 firmware.

coool :-)

... well, you might help me get rid of one thought that is bothering me for some days now:

might voicecount > 4 be possible if the algorythm only takes 2 operators into account instead of 3? Just say "no" and i can sleep again :-)

(I know, this thing is opensource and i should investigate for myself ... )

cheers, Gregor
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Xavier

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2012, 09:34:22 AM »

In real time the PreenFM CPU can handle 12 oscillators + 12 enveloppes.
Which makes:
. 4 voices with 3 operators algo
. 3 voices with 4 operators algo
. 2 voices with 6 operator algo

So you're right, with 2 operators algorithm you could get 6 voices.
But the sound you get with 2 operators would be very simple...

Anyway... it could be interesting to have a 2 operators algo with 6 voices.
I may add this in a future firmware.  ;)

Xavier

stereoping

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2012, 12:15:23 PM »
Thanks a lot for reporting this problem and for the files.
I think it's fixed in 1.61 firmware.

Let me know,

Xavier

ups, just realized you already pushed a firmwareupdate. Just flashed it and ... YESSS! perfect now   :D  Thanks a LOT for this lightning-quick fix.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 12:22:33 PM by stereoping »
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stereoping

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2012, 12:21:07 PM »
So you're right, with 2 operators algorithm you could get 6 voices.
But the sound you get with 2 operators would be very simple...

sure, but just think of a pure e-piano, lots of sine-timbred with very few overtones. for polyphonic musical ambitions it is imho often better to have simpler sounds with few overtones/distortion. 2 OPs would be ok for me.

Anyway... it could be interesting to have a 2 operators algo with 6 voices.
I may add this in a future firmware.  ;)

you would make me even happier :)
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Xavier

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2012, 09:11:53 PM »

I must finish the VST first  ;)

Xavier

Towel

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2012, 06:49:11 AM »
I love how this works here.
Thank you guys. I would appreciate a 6 voice option aswell.

since this problem is solved I dare to go OT.

What do you mean with VST?

Xavier

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Re: another one in germany - some polyphony and midi issues
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2012, 10:24:09 AM »
What do you mean with VST?

A VST plugin to control the PreenFM from within a sequencer.
I posted a screenshot on the FB PreenFM Page :
http://www.facebook.com/PreenFM

Xavier