preenfm Forum
PreenFM => preenfm2 and preenfm3 => Topic started by: randy on November 16, 2012, 07:34:42 PM
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Not sure how many people here are also Shruthi alumni but there has been an ongoing discussion on the MI forum regarding Xavier's great little PreenFM synth. The last reply from Xavier was:
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What a big thread… there’s more discussion here about the Preen than on its own forum ;-)
I don’t have any secrets, so here is the status.
I stopped packaging PreenFM kits because it takes me too much time beside my 3 kids and my full time job.
I shipped around 90 kits and 30 PCBs and am very happy that most people like it and find it usefull.
I don’t have anymore PCB and i’m not sure it’s worth it to order an other batch… Have to order many to have a decent price.
But anyone can do it.. gerber files are online.
You can also take the Kicad source and improve the routing.
But right, like many of you i’m DIY addicted, i cannot stop and I’m working slowly on a PreenFM mk2…
Don’t expect anything before mid 2013. I said slowly ;-)
I’m using a new board (cortex-m4 based) and don’t use any more the libmaple library… so that’s a lot of work.
Please if you have any questions, you can do it on http://forum.preenfm.net
Thanks for the interest,
Xavier
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When I originally started the thread, I was looking for some opinions on the PreenFM from the MI bunch, and the thread has morphed into all sorts of technical discussions. I have since bought a PreenFM kit and have been using it for the past month or so, it's great! So, I figured I'd try and get the discussion moving over here.
Randy
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I am looking forward to building mine, and dipping into and possibly contributing to the forum here.
regards
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Oh... Can't wait!
Will this newer chip give you room to implement some anti-aliasing?
I would love to see phase distortion in a diy synth. At least one where you could edit the phase 'envelope' of the sine wave and create your own oscillator shapes. Of course, this wouldn't be FM anymore. ;D
Martin.
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I'm not sure it will have any kind of anti-aliasing... i've never really worked on this problem.
Does any-one find the volume knob usefull ?
I'm thinking of getting rid of it and adding a 8th push button.
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I've used the volume knob. Most of the time it is at maximum. I won't miss it. :)
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You could always make it optional, like Olivier did on the Shruthi. I have included it on the Shruthis I have.
Randy
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Yes, maybe optional.
But as the mk2 will be stereo, removing it would simplify the schema.
I cannot find a use case where the volume is not to the maximum.
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When I play live, I am constantly adjusting the volume based on the patch I'm using. We don't have a soundman and the mixer is on the other side of the stage, so I keep a small monitor near me that has the same mix as the FOH mix.
If you have a mixer handy and everything is running into it, adjusting the various volumes is easy enough but if the mixer is not that handy, a volume pot is essential. My mixer is old and a bit tucked away, which is why I put output gain pots on my Shruthis.
Of course, this is just me, not sure about everyone else.
Randy
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That's a use case... thanks.
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Only one 'though.
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As i have not built the PreenFM yet i can only say I would find it useful rather than diving to the mixer all the time.
That's two
cheers
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I think a volume knob is very welcome function on any instrument... I really miss them on the shruthi's. It's also nice to be able to fade in/out instruments while playing and not having to go through the mixer.... And even more so using them connected to multichannel digital audiointerfaces wich often don't have a dedicated gain knob for every input and having to go to a software mixer.
What are your plans for the mkII? stereo is great! ... you should have a look at the DX7II ... i've owned one and it is veyr very fat...
things like layering 2 patches or all voices unisono with detune.
Also having played a bit with the PreenFM i hope you can make the preenFMmkII sound a little bit more warm... The DX's are also really good at warm sounds and getting evil metalic sounds is always easy with FM. The preenFM now is especialy good at sounding evil but it;s hard getting more warm and soft sounding patches... I don't know why this is .... Maybe because it's working in integer? Are you making the preenFMmkII work with floats?
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Thanks for letting me know the volume button is usefull.
Moving to float is one of the goal... as the cortex-m4 MCU can do that.
Dont know exactly what the consequences will be on the sound. I haven't ported the engine yet.
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Personally I wouldn't really miss the volume control all that much. I run alll my synths into a DAW and I can control all volumes from there. And if you really need a simple way of controlling volume without a mixer live, I would probably run it through a volume pedal. Would it be an option to control volume with a cc ? Then you could just assign some buttons from your controller to volume up/down and maybe even some volume presets.
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the one thing missing on Olivier's Shruthi is a volume control, it is way too loud , Inearly killed 10 people at a Leeds UK meet with it. ;-) Made a few heads turn. A volume control on any device is there so you know what likely level is coming out before it hits a mixer/daw. I don't use a DAW on stage either, but cc vol change is worthwhile to integrate with my foot controllers. good idea.
cheers
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I have so much fun using PreenFM.
So you can count on me to be one of the first MK2 builder !
Don't hesitate to email some of us (at least me!) for bêta-test any new hardware.
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Thanks.. :D
But don't hold your breath ;-)
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Would it be possible to include expansion options that would potentially enable a "programmer" to be developed? I'm in the midst of building an XT panel for one of my Shruthis and, while I was playing with the PreenFM last night, thought a batch of pots would be coo..
By the way, after finally fiddling with the PreenFM for a while last night, I gotta admit this thing is cool! Even my "Indie, Folktronica, Art Rock, Experimental" son was amazed by the sounds. One second it's gritty and industrial, then a quick turn of a knob or two and it's mellow and deep.
Randy
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An FM Synth with a full hw editor? That's crazy!!! ;D
Martin.
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So the programmer madness is spreading to this forum as well... :P
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It's a disease, don't tell Frank!
Randy
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The question beckons: How to make a programmer that controls the FM parameters in a way that makes sense somehow? It's not uncle Bob's analog synth we're controlling. Then again, better some knobbage over none at all :o
Bring it!
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I was thinking that it could be like the Shruthi, where Xavier could provide expansion capabilities and someone else could develop the programmer.
Randy
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Expansion option would be great. :D
I have to think about how to do that.
For the shruthi1, does it replace the actual surface control or is it in addition to it ?
Does the shruthi1 require a special firmware ? How do you tell it to use the surface...
Xavier
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Both are active. There is a menu option to tell the Shruthi to use the control surface so there must be some firmware. The control surface (programmer) hooks to a series of pins on one of the Shruthi's boards.
If you Google fcd72 Shruthi XT Flickr, you can have a look at how it hooks in.
Randy
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http://synth.me/music-gear/brian-enos-amazing-dx7-hardware-programmer
just to give an idea of how many knobs a full fm synth programmer needs...
i think the preenfm already does a wonderful job at giving good ui acces for programming fm.
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OMG, as my kids would say! Maybe there is a middle ground.
Randy
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Here's a quick mockup for the current PreenFM. 40 knobs and 4 buttons. I'm not sure you'd gain that much on top of the current easy to navigate editor. Does the MidiBox support NRPN numbers? :D
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8347/8237047772_f28f028073.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/88675458@N05/8237047772/)
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Jellinghaus
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Here's a quick mockup for the current PreenFM. 40 knobs and 4 buttons. I'm not sure you'd gain that much on top of the current easy to navigate editor. Does the MidiBox support NRPN numbers? :D
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8347/8237047772_f28f028073.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/88675458@N05/8237047772/)
Very nice :D Seems like you know what you're talking about ;)
The advantage i see over the current editor is:
. oscillator AND envelope at the same time.
. The 8 encoders for the sequencer....
. The encoder to control the 12 modulator rows... better than a button.
Xavier
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I agree, very nice. That is not too much more complicated than the Shruthi programmer. It really depends on whether or not Xavier can include a spot to hook it all into.
Thanks for taking a run at this Funkyfli. In my future I see a Preenfm and an Ambika in one custom box controlled from a single keyboard. Wow, what a synth!
Randy
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Thanks :) But I had a rethink. 8) The big problem with getting a useful hardware programmer for an FM synth is knowing the flow of operators. So, I had an idea and this is what I want... 74 knobs and 8 buttons! And red LED arrows that light up to point the way ;D
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8209/8240303828_79871b5ed3.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/88675458@N05/8240303828/)
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I'm thinking a compromise may be in order.
Randy
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Jellinghaus :)
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Thanks :) But I had a rethink. 8) The big problem with getting a useful hardware programmer for an FM synth is knowing the flow of operators. So, I had an idea and this is what I want... 74 knobs and 8 buttons! And red LED arrows that light up to point the way ;D
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8209/8240303828_79871b5ed3.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/88675458@N05/8240303828/)
74 knobs.... :o
I think i prefer the other one.
This one would be great if the red flow arrow would light on and off depending on the current algo.
But that would start looking like a VST UI ;-)
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Just noticed that was what you already had in mind ;)
" And red LED arrows that light up to point the way "
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I'm willing to compromise ;D Just keep the Operators and the Algorithm control... only 53 knobs!!! I think I might be discovering WHY there is no good hardware FM editor. :( It would be cheaper to invest in a giant touchscreen.
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Xavier, there's a thread on Muff's talking about FM synthesis, might be worth monitoring:
http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73562 (http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73562)
Randy
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Xavier, there's a thread on Muff's talking about FM synthesis, might be worth monitoring:
http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73562 (http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73562)
Randy
Thanks... might be a very interesting thread to follow.
Xavier
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In another interesting FM-related discussion, John Chowning is a member of Muff's and has taken part in this thread:
http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1018792#1018792 (http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1018792#1018792)
Someone asked him what his favourite FM algorithm was, and he posted a picture, kinda cool. Not sure if everyone knows who John Chowning is but do a little bit of research, he is a genius.
On second thought, it might not really be him. Stay tuned...
Randy
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Does seem to be the real John Chowning.
Too bad.... ;-)
Xavier
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What FM editors need is two modes. The RAW edit mode where you have the full power of FM exposed and a more friendly interface where there is some sort of translation layer.
For the translation layer you would load a bass preset (for example) and then tweak it using parameters with more friendly terms, then the raw settings would get changed behind the scenes.
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I think the reason a good editor is hard to create is that each operator plays a significant role in the sound and a different role depending on the algorithm. In the subtractive sense, an operator takes the part of an oscillator, a filter, an output amplifier, a wave shaper or an lfo and could also be only one of many. To limit an editor to one operator at a time is like limiting an editor to only one of those parts at a time.
I'm not sure you could improve the PreenFM editor much at all without adding a significant amount of knobs. It's quite easy to use with a printout of the algorithms in hand. Though, eight knobs might be a bit better than four. ;D
For a 'transition layer' you'd have to determine what operator played what part and was important based on the output. Sounds like a significant amount of work. :)
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For a 'transition layer' you'd have to determine what operator played what part and was important based on the output. Sounds like a significant amount of work. :)
True, but it is the one thing that keeps people on subtractive and makes them scared of FM.
It's too complex for ordinary people.
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What I would do in terms of a translation layer or different editing interface is have starting points, string, lead, bass, organ and so on. Then have tonal parameters, harmonics etc.
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Or you could base the functionality around a hierarchy of the impacts of parameters. If I wanted something to sound "brighter", that could mean adjusting a group of parameters. Or maybe a bit more "dirt", that could mean a different set of parameters, that would be adjusted together. then, if I want to dive in to see what "dirty" actually means, I could open up a window that shows the individual parameters that add "dirt" to a sound.
It's a bit like the drill-down functionality in a data warehouse reporting tool. At the dashboard level, I see some graphs, but double-click on a portion of the graph and I see the detailed data behind it.
Randy
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Lots of interesting suggestions and parameter tweak ideas .
Could think about it for the next VST.
But don't expect this in PreenFM mk2... ;-)
It will be an upgraded version of the original one but not that different.
Xavier
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"It will be an upgraded version of the original one but not that different."
Xavier, that's good news and bad news I suppose. It's good because it means my current PreenFM will not be completely out-of-date, but bad because it means I might not need the new version.
Randy
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"It will be an upgraded version of the original one but not that different."
Xavier, that's good news and bad news I suppose. It's good because it means my current PreenFM will not be completely out-of-date, but bad because it means I might not need the new version.
Randy
Yes, you'll be able to save money if you don't need stereo, multitimbral and more voices among other things... ;)
Sound quality is also better/different (floating point engine + real DACs), but i think low fi people can like better the origial one.
The look, surface controle and parameters will be very similar.
Xavier
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Okay, guess I better start saving money again then.
Randy
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woo hoo! V2 here I come
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Awesome! Really looking forward to building the bigger brother of my little FM guy. Yarr :P
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Xavier, do you have any plans to do a PCB + processor option?
Randy
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Thanks guys :)
Randy, I don't not have any plan for that.
Have you seen that burning the firmware on the PreenFM2 do not require any special material ?
Once your PreenFM2 is plugged to a computer with a USB cable Type B (regular printer cable) you can flash it by linking JMP3 on the PCB.
On Windows you only have to install driver once. See http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/built-it/burn-firmware/
If you don't want to do that and are ready to pay 35 Euros for a pre burned cerb40, PM me. I have 2 or 3 spare pieces. ;-)
Xavier
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what's the function of the holes in the base of the case?
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what's the function of the holes in the base of the case?
3.3V and 5V regulator are in the middle of this holes. Better dissipation + smaller enclosure.
Xavier
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I nearly finished my PreenFM 2. I'm still waiting on my Cerb40, but it should be here tomorrow :)
What's with the three headers P1-3? :) In the pcb files I read something about Shruthi-1 Filter o0
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Great :D
Please post a pitcure, that will be the first PreenFM2 built outside my house.
Was the BOM and build pages OK ?
About the headers :
P1 : pins for a st link V2 (http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM146/CL1984/SC720/SS1450/PF251168) to easily flash and debug the firmware
P2 : anything + contains an input 5V. So theorically a Shruthi SMR4 filter could be plugged here controlled from the PreenFM. That's the idea, i've never tried neither writed a single line of code for this.
P3 : Ouput 3.3V + 4 pins that can read analog input. Never tried anything with that too.
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P2 : anything + contains an input 5V. So theorically a Shruthi SMR4 filter could be plugged here controlled from the PreenFM. That's the idea, i've never tried neither writed a single line of code for this.
Oh do tell. FM Synth+analog filter = winning. Take a listen to TK's Midibox FM which has CEM VCFs added: http://midibox.org/forums/topic/6092-pimp-my-behringer/#entry40383
I will send you a built and tested SMR filterboard if you make this happen..
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Thanks i already have a SMR filter board ;-)
Unfortunately, it's very low in my priority list...