preenfm Forum
PreenFM => preenfm2 and preenfm3 => Topic started by: Brockstar on November 18, 2019, 04:54:28 PM
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Something weird happened... a moment ago I started noticing that something was off and some of my keys going out of tune on my keystep midi controller. Like the E key would say D on tuner for a bit then change back or I'll hit a D and then an octave D and they wouldn't sound right at all etc.. Very odd. So I rebooted the system and went right back to the sound i was using and it's back to normal now? Has this happened before to anyone else?
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Another quick thing to note is when a note is out of tune and as soon as you change the voice knob it pops right back in tune sometimes.... so apparently something to do with voice knob maybe?
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I ran in a few problems with 2.09 as well on certain patches with voices higher than 3... but once lowered to 3 or less, the tuning was normal. I don't understand why but from all the testings I think the firmwares are fine. Really odd too, the patches I run across that has a issue, if i unplug usb and plug back in, go back to that sound and it's normal and tuned in normal... ODD! Seems to only do it after the unit has been on for some time.
Like for example, im testing out .syx files and i run across one where a key will be out of tune, if i lower that voice to 3 or below it goes back into tune or if i turn the unit off and back on it goes back into tune... Can someone please tell me why? Doesn't make sense at all.
Seems like I get a lot of views by people seeing my post but no help :(
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Can powering it with USB cause issues like this? I don't have a proper adapter for it so just been powering it with USB. I wouldn't think so?
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I don't think this is the USB power.
Can you post a sample patch you this happens with? What algorithms are the patches using that demonstrate this issue?
Are all the notes being played on the same channel. For example, does it happen if you play 3 or more notes on channel 1, and if you play two notes on channel 1 and one note on channel 2.
Does this happen if you use a computer sequencer like Logic?
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I don't think this is the USB power.
Can you post a sample patch you this happens with? What algorithms are the patches using that demonstrate this issue?
Are all the notes being played on the same channel. For example, does it happen if you play 3 or more notes on channel 1, and if you play two notes on channel 1 and one note on channel 2.
Does this happen if you use a computer sequencer like Logic?
I have a video im gonna try to get posted today of the behavior. It's hard to explain, have to see it more to understand.
It happens randomly, i won't know what patch until I try it out and as for algorithms, I start with alg1 and move up to test the sounds. And in right hand corner every time I press a key on my arturia keystep "1234" shows up if that's what you mean by channel.
When I'm testing a patch, the I1 is the only one that I use, I2, I3, I4 all voice is turned off.
At bottom of screen you have "alg, velo and voic". For algorithm, velocity and voices.
When I run across a patch that sounds out of tune (just a random note, then it comes back in tune then another note goes out etc.) I usually have the "voic" parameter set to 6 or higher.. but if i lower that to 3 or lower, the key that was out of tune goes back into tune and the patch sounds fine, or if i unplug usb and plug usb back in and go right back to that same patch and sound, it's back to normal even if i turn the "voic" parameter higher than 3. Like I said it's random, and it may never happen on that patch again.
Also I don't use logic or computer sequencers etc.. I just plug keystep into the preenfm2, out from preen into my line 6 helix etc..
This whole issue makes no sense but I need to get to the bottom of it. Sure it's random and I can just unplug, plug back in or turn down to 3 voices or less when it happens and move on, but I shouldn't have too. Something is wrong for sure. I paid almost $300 off someone for this unit and I can't afford it to half work.
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That's really weird.
"1234" shows up ? at the same time ?
You should try to set" Tool>Set>Global ch: None"
You can use INST+MENU on the preenfm3 to reset the voice alocation. Does that fix the problem whe it appears ?
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That's really weird.
"1234" shows up ? at the same time ?
You should try to set" Tool>Set>Global ch: None"
You can use INST+MENU on the preenfm3 to reset the voice alocation. Does that fix the problem whe it appears ?
Yes 1234 shows up in top right corner of my preenfm2 every time I press on a key on my midi controller, and global ch: is set to none, and also I use the inst+menu when a note hangs, but my notes are going out of tune randomly here and there, this shouldn't be happening with a digital synth.
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So all instrument listen to the same midi channel ?
Can you set a dedicated midi channel for each instrument on the preenfm2 and have your KeyStep send to only one instrument ? Does that fix the problem ?
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So all instrument listen to the same midi channel ?
Can you set a dedicated midi channel for each instrument on the preenfm2 and have your KeyStep send to only one instrument ? Does that fix the problem ?
What do you mean? You mean in the tools section put midi 1, midi 2, midi 3 etc? And not sure about keystep? Not sure why any of that would make the sound go out of tune though on a digital synth?
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Hey Xavier, so I came across a patch that went out of tune so I took your advice just now and did the inst+menu together and it popped it right back in tune! So is there a reason why though? I'm glad it's able to go back into tune but would suck if you used it live or recording and it did that, even if it's a quick fix with the inst+menu buttons.... A digital synth shouldn't be going out of tune or is it the syx files doing it?
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Brockstar, can you post the patch, or do you know the name of the patch?
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Brockstar, can you post the patch, or do you know the name of the patch?
As stated in my comments, it's random. It's not just any particular patch. It just happens when it happens when I load a patch up. I can load it up, and it'll be out of tune, next time I load it, it'll be fine etc.. Same as any other patch. But now that that inst+menu fixes it, I'm a bit happier doing that then having to unplug and plug the usb back in etc... Still strangely odd a digital synth doing it but I'm guessing it has something to do with the .syx files.
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It's very easy to have a FM digital synth play out of tune, just change a little the frequency or 'fine tune' of the carrier operators.
So i assume the Sysex import translator has a problem.
This is the first time i hear about this, that's why i think it may be linked to the instrument listening all to the same midi channel and the number of voice of the different instruments.
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It's very easy to have a FM digital synth play out of tune, just change a little the frequency or 'fine tune' of the carrier operators.
So i assume the Sysex import translator has a problem.
This is the first time i hear about this, that's why i think it may be linked to the instrument listening all to the same midi channel and the number of voice of the different instruments.
I understand the fine tune and frequency stuff by manualling detuning what you want on a digital synth, but this isn't that I don't think.
Also I'm not using any other instruments? When I load up a .syx file to test, I turn the voic to 6, the velo to 8 and the alg to 1 and then I go through the 28 algorithms to try each one out. The I1 is the only thing I'm using. I2, I3, I4 voices are off set to 0 and not using them.
When I 1st got the preenfm2 last saturday it was displaying "1" in top right corner but then somehow it now shows "1234" in top right corner of screen when I press a key. I can't seem to get it back to 1 in the settings. Perhaps as you mention, this may be the issue, but i can't get it back to 1 for some reason.
Like I said above it's random. I never know which ones going to do it. But pushing inst+menu does pop it back into tune so that is good, but wish I didn't have to do that when it happens.
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Ok i figured out how to get "1" back in top right hand corner, so no more "1234". I went into settings and midi ch section was all set on 1... but this time i set each 1:1 2:2 3:3 4:4 etc.. and now "1" shows up on top right screen. I swore I changed it before but for some reason it's showing 1 now... so we'll see if it helps.
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Ok doing that didn't fix it either... Came across a random patch and the "c" note was out of tune, then i hit inst+menu and it popped right back in. I really wonder why it's doing this and makes me wonder if there's the same issue going on with other peoples machines and they just don't know it.
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and ran across it again on another patch.... So simple fix is hit inst+menu each time before playing the patch.... BUT, I wonder if you could make something in the next firmware that auto does that when the patch loads? Some sort of code that when it loads it automatically cycles inst+menu one time therefore would fix any patch that has an issue before even playing it. Like an auto-tune feature as it loads.
I'm not sure why my machine is doing it. Doesn't make any sense since it happens with random patches but it makes me mysterious if it's happening to others but they just don't know it. Maybe it's the .syx files doing it, I'm not sure. Big mystery.
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Ok here's 2 videos I shot yesterday...
Video one shows me hitting a "A" note but it registers as D on my tuner? Doesn't make sense, shouldn't be doing that. The fix is the same inst+menu pops it back into tune or if I lower the "voic" parameter to 3 or less it will go back into tune.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17CLYCegEY5enIBVKCPTeQQND9UobGQSn (https://drive.google.com/open?id=17CLYCegEY5enIBVKCPTeQQND9UobGQSn)
Video two shows the thing going out of tune when "voic" is set higher than 3 and shouldn't be doing that, but in the video as you can see I lower it back to 3 "voic" and it goes back into tune. The fix is the same inst+menu pops it back into tune or if I lower the "voic" parameter to 3 or less it will go back into tune.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J-MD8c6SYj1dHvzbIpkMn5xSxliYehFv (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J-MD8c6SYj1dHvzbIpkMn5xSxliYehFv)
The weird thing is out of all this, the out of tune notes jump. Run across a patch and it may be the "A" note out, then play it a little then all of a sudden the "F" note goes out instead and the "A" note is back in tune. And it's random patches, you never know if it's gonna happen until you play it.
So as you can see I'm not going crazy and this is a real concern. :P
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I watched the first video and thought, maybe the patch has some overtones (or too hot of a level into the tuner) and a harmonic at D is showing up on the tuner. But when I watched the second video, I clearly see your instrument is going out of tune.
I am running p2_fltrs_0111o.bin and am not having the out of tune issue. I am powered via USB from my macBook Pro. I am sending notes to the PreenFM2 via USB MIDI from Logic on the Mac.
I tried about 15 different patches from the DX7 ROM 1 Bank and just ran a C major scale over and over, and I turned the Voic parameter up to 8. Zero problems. Everything in tune.
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Video one shows me hitting a "A" note but it registers as D on my tuner? Doesn't make sense, shouldn't be doing that. The fix is the same inst+menu pops it back into tune or if I lower the "voic" parameter to 3 or less it will go back into tune.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17CLYCegEY5enIBVKCPTeQQND9UobGQSn (https://drive.google.com/open?id=17CLYCegEY5enIBVKCPTeQQND9UobGQSn)
Everthing is fine in this video except your tuner ;)
The note is clearly a A compare to G and F you also play, and your tuner display a D.
As Matrix12x said, it must be some inharmonic frequency, that are strong in this sound and confuse your tuner.
Video two shows the thing going out of tune when "voic" is set higher than 3 and shouldn't be doing that, but in the video as you can see I lower it back to 3 "voic" and it goes back into tune. The fix is the same inst+menu pops it back into tune or if I lower the "voic" parameter to 3 or less it will go back into tune.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J-MD8c6SYj1dHvzbIpkMn5xSxliYehFv (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J-MD8c6SYj1dHvzbIpkMn5xSxliYehFv)
The weird thing is out of all this, the out of tune notes jump. Run across a patch and it may be the "A" note out, then play it a little then all of a sudden the "F" note goes out instead and the "A" note is back in tune. And it's random patches, you never know if it's gonna happen until you play it.
So as you can see I'm not going crazy and this is a real concern. :P
I think it sounds out of tune because 6 inharmonic notes with long release are sounding at the same time.
Reducing the number of notes make the overall sound clearer and sound more in tune.
For me it's the operators settings that make it sound like this.
You use ALG1, set all 3 operator waveform to Sin.
Ftype: Keyb
Freq : 1.0 or 2.0 (like you want for each)
Ftune : 0.0
That will make a very clean FM sound.
The more complex and inharmonic the preset is, the weirder it will sound specially when you play several note at the same time.
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Video one shows me hitting a "A" note but it registers as D on my tuner? Doesn't make sense, shouldn't be doing that. The fix is the same inst+menu pops it back into tune or if I lower the "voic" parameter to 3 or less it will go back into tune.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17CLYCegEY5enIBVKCPTeQQND9UobGQSn (https://drive.google.com/open?id=17CLYCegEY5enIBVKCPTeQQND9UobGQSn)
Everthing is fine in this video except your tuner ;)
The note is clearly a A compare to G and F you also play, and your tuner display a D.
As Matrix12x said, it must be some inharmonic frequency, that are strong in this sound and confuse your tuner.
Video two shows the thing going out of tune when "voic" is set higher than 3 and shouldn't be doing that, but in the video as you can see I lower it back to 3 "voic" and it goes back into tune. The fix is the same inst+menu pops it back into tune or if I lower the "voic" parameter to 3 or less it will go back into tune.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J-MD8c6SYj1dHvzbIpkMn5xSxliYehFv (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J-MD8c6SYj1dHvzbIpkMn5xSxliYehFv)
The weird thing is out of all this, the out of tune notes jump. Run across a patch and it may be the "A" note out, then play it a little then all of a sudden the "F" note goes out instead and the "A" note is back in tune. And it's random patches, you never know if it's gonna happen until you play it.
So as you can see I'm not going crazy and this is a real concern. :P
I think it sounds out of tune because 6 inharmonic notes with long release are sounding at the same time.
Reducing the number of notes make the overall sound clearer and sound more in tune.
For me it's the operators settings that make it sound like this.
You use ALG1, set all 3 operator waveform to Sin.
Ftype: Keyb
Freq : 1.0 or 2.0 (like you want for each)
Ftune : 0.0
That will make a very clean FM sound.
The more complex and inharmonic the preset is, the weirder it will sound specially when you play several note at the same time.
Lol no, the note is an A but it does NOT sound like an A as you can hear when I run through the keys that the key goes out in my 2nd video etc.. My tuner is perfectly fine as it works fine for my guitars and other synths.
"As Matrix12x said, it must be some inharmonic frequency, that are strong in this sound and confuse your tuner."
Again it happens on different random patches not just one patch! So I disagree as well.
"For me it's the operators settings that make it sound like this.
You use ALG1, set all 3 operator waveform to Sin.
Ftype: Keyb
Freq : 1.0 or 2.0 (like you want for each)
Ftune : 0.0
That will make a very clean FM sound."
How so? As I stated a few times already that no other instrument is on. The voic parameter is off on I2, I3, I4 etc.. And every patch that I run across that has this issue I check and the ftune is always 0.0 etc..
Tell me why if it's not a problem then why does it fix it when I hit inst+menu even on patches that don't linger or hang on... can be a random bass patch too etc.. Or why putting it down to 3 "voic" or less for that sound fixes it. I know something is wrong somewhere. It may not be the firmware, it could just be my unit, but it should NOT be doing this or else you if it was just what you say it is then others would be complaining as well, so obviously it can't be that based on " inharmonic frequency".
Thank you both but apparently no one understands what I'm going through even after trying to explain and show proof :(
Sighs, I guess I'll never know why or get this fixed. For now I'll just have to hit inst+menu every time I run across a patch that sounds out of tune and be jealous of everyone else that don't have to do that.
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Ok here's another video I took for you just now!... A longer one. Sorry if I sound rude in video or here, not trying too but just very frustrated. Lol it's hard to hold camera and play at the same time but I tried my best to show and explain again. PLEASE pay attention to what I'm showing and explaining.
I loaded a patch that has no over hang or ringing notes etc.. So no frequency issue can be blamed for bleeding into each other.
I cycle through the OP's and clearly show all Ftune is 0.0 so nothing is out of tune and that all are on SIN.
I cycle through the instrument 1,2,3,4 and show you I'm only using I1 and that 2,3,4 "voic" parameters are set to 0 aka off meaning no sound is coming from them period!
I show you and if you can hear that the keys randomly go out of tune. One minute I do octave A with another A and they don't sound in tune with each other and tuner confirms this all the time and you can hear it with your ears. Then next run through the A is back to normal but the F octave with the other F is not in tune with each other and then it goes back into tune etc.. etc.. This isn't "normal" behaviour.
I then show you that I lowered the "Voic" parameter from 6 down to 3 and all keys are in tune with no problem and then show you that it's back out of tune when I go higher than 3 "voic". Then I show you that it goes right in tune when I press the inst+menu button etc.. etc..
Sorry but NONE of this is "normal" or suppose to be happening.
Something is clearly going wrong somewhere and I'm pretty certain it's not me lol.
P.S: After I did that video i reloaded the same patch and no problems at all...... So yeah very odd behaviour that shouldn't be happening.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13jZe1AL0XGfZv9EZQGtsiteUFcleR_w- (https://drive.google.com/open?id=13jZe1AL0XGfZv9EZQGtsiteUFcleR_w-)
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Here's the last video I'm going to post. This patch just did this now. I provided enough hard proof to show that something is very wrong.
It's up to someone else to figure out why because I can't get no answers myself when I've tried everything and nothing here has helped me.
It's not a inharmonic frequency issue at all not when you can unplug the unit and come back to the same patch and it's fine etc.. or can fix it by turning the "voic" parameter to 3 or lower or use the inst+menu button.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xu3C0I5k-Hre6HSFjQRfR6Vvp8YO6LED (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xu3C0I5k-Hre6HSFjQRfR6Vvp8YO6LED)
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OK you're right. There is something wrong...
Seems like it's not random at all and that you reproduce each time you switch from 3 to 6 voices for this patch, no ?
If you want me to give a try I really need this patch. Can you save it in your default preset and share DEFAULT.CMB. You can access it from the PC without opening the preenfm2. See (1) here : http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/manual/upgrade-firmware/
I have no idea what's going on, so i have some questions to try to understand.
1. Is if a filter (LP, HP ?) activated ?
2. Is tools>Set>Midi thru on or off ?
3. Does it only happen with preset from DX7 sysex ? or with regular preenfm2 preset ?
4. When out of tune. If you press 6 keys at the same time. Does it have the same result as INST+MENU ?
5. Is Tools>Scala>Enable ?
And a last one :
6. Is the problem still here if you set Tools>Set>Receives to NONE ?
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OK you're right. There is something wrong...
Seems like it's not random at all and that you reproduce each time you switch from 3 to 6 voices for this patch, no ?
If you want me to give a try I really need this patch. Can you save it in your default preset and share DEFAULT.CMB. You can access it from the PC without opening the preenfm2. See (1) here : http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/manual/upgrade-firmware/
I have no idea what's going on, so i have some questions to try to understand.
1. Is if a filter (LP, HP ?) activated ?
2. Is tools>Set>Midi thru on or off ?
3. Does it only happen with preset from DX7 sysex ? or with regular preenfm2 preset ?
4. When out of tune. If you press 6 keys at the same time. Does it have the same result as INST+MENU ?
5. Is Tools>Scala>Enable ?
And a last one :
6. Is the problem still here if you set Tools>Set>Receives to NONE ?
There's no point in sending you a file because it's random. One minute it's fine, then next patch is out of tune, 30 mins can go by and it's fine and then another patch out of tune etc. It's not just one specific patch.
1. Is if a filter (LP, HP ?) activated ? - When I load a patch, filter is off.
2. Is tools>Set>Midi thru on or off ? - Yes it's off
3. Does it only happen with preset from DX7 sysex ? or with regular preenfm2 preset ? - Nothing so far has on regular preenfm2 presets but i haven't played them much but will do more testing on them today, so far it's just been dx7 .syx files randomly.
4. When out of tune. If you press 6 keys at the same time. Does it have the same result as INST+MENU ? - No, the only fix so far is hitting inst+menu or turning "voic" parameter down to 3 or less.
5. Is Tools>Scala>Enable ? - No it's not, I checked a few times.
And a last one :
6. Is the problem still here if you set Tools>Set>Receives to NONE ? - It's set to NONE
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Ok so today I played a bunch of normal preen presets and few others that were in it and not the .syx files and not one single one of those went out of tune, so it seems the problem is with the .syx files or possibly with the way they load up in the unit or something. For now I'll just do the inst+menu button fix when i run across a patch that's out, but I really hope others will see this and try a bunch of .syx files and put the "voic" parameter on anything higher than 3 and go and try a bunch of them and see if they go out for them. Maybe people just don't realize it or use the dx7 section much... I don't know, but you wouldn't think it should go out of tune either way or as I previously stated above in the comment section... Maybe in next firmware put a code in as soon as you load in a .syx file it autotunes it or something.
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Thanks for taking the time to answer to all questions :)
That helps to eliminate some bug possibility.
Seems to be linked to DX7 import code + voice allocation + possibilty some midi info the Keystep sends that the preenfm2 does not like....
At least you have a Workaround when that occures.
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Thanks for taking the time to answer to all questions :)
That helps to eliminate some bug possibility.
Seems to be linked to DX7 import code + voice allocation + possibilty some midi info the Keystep sends that the preenfm2 does not like....
At least you have a Workaround when that occures.
No problem. I hope it can be fixed one day with new firmware though without having to use a work around. I'm not so sure it would be the keystep causing issues either because many people use it and haven't reported anything weird like this either. I'm guessing I'm the first person so far....
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Hi Brokstar,
I would like to know if my attemps to fix the problem worked.
If you have time to test firmware 2.11b1, that would be great.
http://ixox.fr/forum/index.php?topic=69597.msg73799#msg73799
Xavier