Author Topic: Volume mixer  (Read 940 times)

grit

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Volume mixer
« on: March 18, 2016, 11:06:39 AM »
Say I love my new PreenFM2 module, it all works very smart.

I might have missed functionality (have just been fiddling around with the PreenFM2), but wouldn't it also be nice to incorporate a performance menu somewhere so the 4 rotary encoder would act as a 'mixer console'? The menu could be added to the load/save/tools for example. Maybe some screen like this:


 --------------------------------
|       CH1    CH2    CH3    CH4 |(can act as mute?)
| pan    0     -10     10     0  |
| fx     0      1      1     .5  |
| level  1      .5     .1    .5  |
|                                |
 --------------------------------


Maybe the left buttons could act as a Y selector and the rotarys are fixed to a channel.
This way you could use the PreenFM2 for e.g. live sequencer performances a lot easier


alien_brain

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2016, 04:06:20 PM »
+1

hey, how about a vector mode?   :P

mzero

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 10:38:52 PM »
+1

I was just coming here to suggest pretty much the same thing.
While performing live, I need a quick way to adjust the balance of the four instruments.

For me, volume is the only important one. Pan might be nice.
Fx level I can see as being difficult, in so far as it might interact with the patch... and not sure there is but one "fx" control to use?

matrix12x

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 01:29:02 AM »
+1
This would be a great addition.  :)

mzero

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 08:08:37 AM »
Other thing I noted today related to this: The volume of an instrument is reduced as you add more voices. This is done in an attempt to get the most dynamic range out of the DACs...

But in live work, this is very awkward: If I'm playing live and I decide to adjust the voice allocation - sometimes I like to up a bass sound from 1 voice to 2 - now I have to fiddle with other parameters to make it balanced again.

The 18-bit DAC has plenty of head room - it would be nicer to have a voice have a constant volume.

lokki

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 10:12:20 AM »
well yes and no... you see, when you use a sound with less harmonics, the headroom becomes a problem pretty fast. you can hear a distorted sound on a sine VERY quickly. that is why i think it is smart to have it that way. also where would you draw the line? have it always at 16 voices (the dac setting that is) so that when you play monophonic you only use 1/16th of the dynamic range? hmm.

to circumvent your volume problem in live settings i would create at least one instrument which fills up all the voices. once you need more on the bass for example, you simply reduce on the other instrument first.

that being said, it would be relatively trivial to change this in firmware. (xavier has done this for the 8timbres version and it is just one calculation that has to be changed)

mzero

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 10:05:43 PM »
yeah, I guess I would set as if all 16 voices were playing... So playing a single voice is giving up almost 4 bits of the DAC's range, so from 18 bits down to 14. But that's still a tremendous dynamic range for a single voice. I'd be surprised if it were a problem....

But, one approach would be - assuming you have a "master instrument" mixer like O.P. in this thread proposes - and assuming that is scaled so that you can achieve +/-12db (say). Now, if the output of each instrument is fixed to the maximal polyphony possible, then.... if you are only playing one instrument or just one voice, you can use this mixer page to regain those bits in the conversion.


joradsilver

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 07:55:54 PM »
+1

Just got the box. Love the sounds and the editing but for performance 100% need this functionality to use well. Please advise when this get updated or someone finds a way.

mzero

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2018, 04:41:11 PM »
Reading through the source code, I discovered that there is already a CC mapped to volume, it just isn't obvious:

CC 73, Filter Gain, is actually gain1 no matter what filter or final effect mode is selected, even none.

If Xavier's intention is that parameter always be simple channel gain as part of any future effects, then this parameter could be used for a in-box mixer mode, as well as externally.

I suppose if I were to attempt to code this (which I might), I'd be tempted to put an additional, per-instrument, pan and gain stage after the filter. I don't think it would cost too much in processing, and it would leave the row of filter parameters alone for future filter use. I would also be likely to implement a "constant voice gain" mode so that number of voices doesn't change the relative volume of an instrument.2

In the original post, there is a fx level. I suspect the intention was wet/dry. This doesn't exist in the synth. calculations today, but could be easily added (just another two multiplies and an add per instrument.)

Thoughts?

1: This filter stage gain calculation is linear. This gives a rather unnatural feel to the control. I'd think a quadratic response (squaring the gain) would yield a wider usable range, with a more natural feel, where the user can feel the control as scaled dbs.

2: It is understood that in a "constant voice gain", an instrument with but one voice would be 1/8 the volume it could be - thus losing some available range on the DAC if it were the only instrument. Personally, I'd be willing to give up these 3 bits in exchange for constant leveling of voices: one voice in a mono instrument is as loud as a single voice in a 3 voice instrument.

joradsilver

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2018, 06:36:44 PM »
Reading through the source code, I discovered that there is already a CC mapped to volume, it just isn't obvious:

CC 73, Filter Gain, is actually gain1 no matter what filter or final effect mode is selected, even none.

If Xavier's intention is that parameter always be simple channel gain as part of any future effects, then this parameter could be used for a in-box mixer mode, as well as externally.


After digging a little I found this option too. From a user experience though, it's still quite clunky to jump between instruments.

At the most basic level, all I'd like to have my hands on would be a simple volume mixer of the four instruments on on panel using the four bottom encoders. Seems like using the filter gain parameter could achieve this nicely if coded to do so. But your idea on per instrument pan/gain would be even better !  I hope you give it a try :)

I support any efforts to make this happen but unfortunately my own technical ability is not quite there yet  :-\


Will keep an ear here and hope to assist in any way I can from testing/usability perspective.


Xavier

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2018, 08:16:25 AM »
Hi,

Did any try to use the performance page for that ?

In the matrix of each instrument you can try :
p1 -> 1.0 -> Mix*
p2 -> 1.0 -> Pan*

So when in the performance page, (part 5 here http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/manual/synth-edit-mode/ ) you can navigate through instrumuent by presing INST button and you always have the encoder 1 for the volume and encoder 2 for the pan.

Xavier

mzero

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2018, 12:42:54 AM »
The performance mapping thing is a work around... but you lose 1 or 2 performance parameters when you do that, and you don't have a quick and easy way to balance the parts.

I'm running the PreenFM2 live where MIDI sequencers and loopers are feeding the four instruments. As I'm playing, being able to quickly adjust the mix between the parts is important.

My set up using an external MIDI controller with eight encoders: The left four encoders are always the volume of the four PreenFM2 instruments (currently using the Filter Gain CC). The right four encoders are the four performance parameters, and there are four bank select switches to select which PreenFM2 instrument it controls.  This lets me tweak the performance parameters of an instrument as it is playing, and if that changes the volume significantly (they often do), I can quickly adjust the mix between the other instruments.

I should probably make a video fo this....


joradsilver

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Re: Volume mixer
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 03:26:58 AM »
Hi,

Did any try to use the performance page for that ?

In the matrix of each instrument you can try :
p1 -> 1.0 -> Mix*
p2 -> 1.0 -> Pan*

So when in the performance page, (part 5 here http://ixox.fr/preenfm2/manual/synth-edit-mode/ ) you can navigate through instrumuent by presing INST button and you always have the encoder 1 for the volume and encoder 2 for the pan.

Xavier

It's pretty clunky to cycle through the instruments when trying to mix levels on the fly. It'd be great if there was just a simple way to have a performance mode across the instruments so the Mix* levels for all 4 instruments were on one page. This would solve most of my issue. Really just need a way to have a simple mixer interface when using multiple instruments.

Thanks for all your work with this Xavier ! Love the box !